Hi

We have recently lost our 14 month working cocker Spike in a tragic accident. He was in quite a bit of pain in the last few weeks we had him and he had just been diagnosed with loose hips. When we feel ready to get another puppy we want to make sure we do what we can to avoid the distress both to the puppy and us that seeing Spike in pain caused. I have read about hip scoring but after speaking to some breaders I am begining to discover that not may have their working cockers scored as they have either never had issues or they do not trust the tests. I apreciate that there may be other factors that can cause loose hips such as too much walking too soon, but I wondered if any one could provide more info/help about the way we could minimise the risks. Thanks Jo

Hello Jo, sorry to hear about Spike, it must have been awful.  Whilst I'm no expert on the various tests available you are certainly in the right place and i'm sure lots of help will be forthcoming.

Hi Jo

         Sorry to hear of your sad loss, as far as hip scoring goes I would suggest that unless breeders see or hear of hip problems the concept of scoring will go over their heads, or may be briefly considered.................besides how far do you go with the available tests, myself I have hips and eyes done, because I see the need for such tests, however I go to an untested stud dog because he throws the pups I like,  in the future I expect that more health risks will be open for testing, these new tests may well bring forth an eletist group of dogs narowing the gene pool even further creating further health issues, If that's what people are looking for then that's what they will get.

I honestly don't know the full answer to curing health issues, I do what I do and so far have been pleased with the results. My only real advice on looking after hips is do not allow any new pup to free run for more than a minute per week of age say twice a day, you can of course do lots close training that does not require free running, apart from that..... because of the hormone effect on growing bones ..... do not opt to have spaying or neutering done until after 18 months, when the bones have naturally stopped growing.

I would like to open this topic to general discussion, I am thick skinned or is it bone headed. Just don't run my dogs down.

Really sorry to hear about poor Spike, how traumatic for both him and you.  I'm with BM on hip scoring - it must mean something otherwise people wouldn't have it done but as with a lot of things it's not infallible.  If it were me, I would go to a reputable breeder and ask about any problems the breeder had encountered with pups they've produced regarding hips.  Any reputable breeder with the best interests of the animal at heart would probably be as devastated as the new owner to hear of such problems in one of their litters and certainly if made aware of it would endeavour not to breed that sire and dam together again.  Small comfort to you, the purchaser, I know, but the best you can do is to ask the question and hope that the breeder is honest with you.  Good luck when the time comes.

So sorry to hear about Spike, heartbreaking for you.

Thanks for the help so far....BM that is interesting advise about the walking,,,since loosing Spike I have been told that I should not have walked him on or off lead for more than 20 mins twice a day until the age of 1.....He did walk for more than that and he loved to run...definatly advise to remember for next time.

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss, Jo. I lost my Scott due to severe hip dysplasia (FCI scoring D/E) in January this year and I know how hard it is to loose a young dog like that.

I had Scott x-rayed in November 2010 as a normal health test. I would never had guessed that his hips were so bad. He didn't show any signs of pain and didn't limp. On the contrary, he was a very active dog and a keen worker. With hindsight, I think a part of his activity was a way for him to forget about his pain, but I can't know for sure.

His breeder was as devastated as I was when Scott was diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia and immediately went to the vet and had Scott's mum x-rayed. I really appreciate Scott's breeder for doing that. Sadly, Scott's mum was also diagnosed with hip dysplasia (24/26) and will not have any more puppies.

I hope all WC breeders are starting to take hip dysplasia seriously. You can't see on dog if it's affected or not, you have to x-ray. Hip dysplasia is only one thing out of many to consider when breeding, but still something to consider...

Some more food for thought ......... When we first decided to breed I considered the various health tests available at the time and asked advice from a handful of people.............the consensus at that time was there is no need to test because any health problems would show in the breeding dogs, and the responsible breeder would not re-use them.

Among the people I asked, just one person stood out, who is a member on here, the gist of her suggestion was that the way things are going with litigation, it would not be long before an aggrieved pup owner took a breeder who could be perhaps be shown to have not provided a "duty of care" towards their prospective pup buyers to court and sought compensation.

As far as I know this has not yet happened, in any dog breed, but the concept set me thinking.

There are a number of variables that can effect a dogs hips, exercise accidents, poor diet and hereditary issues.

You are right Mike, as breeders we do have a Duty of Care to our dogs and puppies. Most people would take notice about small amounts of excercise, good diet etc, but I really struggle to understand the "ostrich" breeders who persist in believing that you "don't get hip dysplacis in working cockers"

That being said, it is the last health test I do in cockers, mainly because it is expensive and the dog needs to have a general anaesthetic. I make sure they are clear of all the others first. Also, because there is minimal history of hip scores in working cockers, you can breed from parents that have good score and still produce a pup that is affected. This is more the reason to get them scored, so we can have a long history to look back on.

The main issue that is causing a problem with scoring, is that owners get theirs dogs x-rayed and some vets will say "that doesn't look good, do you want to submit it" and the owner doesn't, therefore we are getting a weighted result, because only good scores are getting sent to the KC. This is just wrong, we need good, reliable information going forward.

Ali, I agree with all you have said. I do wish it was the rule that once the x rays are taken they must be submitted. This would give a much more acurate picture of any breeds average hip score. I had my golden x rayed and her hips were appalling but - I still submittd the xrays and had them scored. I cant breed from her but so far -( with a bit of luck and following wind it will remain so) - her hips don't cause her any problems and I work her as normal. What do you do first Ali? If eyes which tests do you have done? Do you then go onto elbows or ------- ? I would like to know and at what age do you begin to test?

Jo, I meant to add to my post my sympathy at losing your cocker so very young. Losing a dog at any age is always heart rending but when they are young it is truly awful. I'm so sorry for you.

Mary at September 10, 2011 at 7:04 AM

Ali, I agree with all you have said. I do wish it was the rule that once the x rays are taken they must be submitted. This would give a much more acurate picture of any breeds average hip score. I had my golden x rayed and her hips were appalling but - I still submittd the xrays and had them scored. I cant breed from her but so far -( with a bit of luck and following wind it will remain so) - her hips don't cause her any problems and I work her as normal. What do you do first Ali? If eyes which tests do you have done? Do you then go onto elbows or ------- ? I would like to know and at what age do you begin to test?

Mary,

It is a rule that ALL scores are submitted but some vets can be persuaded to not submit "bad" looking x rays for scoring. My vet is so straight he would go beserk if I suggested such a thing!!!

If all scores were submitted, the average score would be higher than the current 14 or 16 average. This would mean that more dogs would come under the average or below average catagory.

As for which order to have tests done, its probably easiest to do the DNA tests such as prcd PRA and FN as they can be done with a swab. Then GPRA / CPRA and Gonioscopy, but there are no rules as to what order they are done, you can start as puppies.

Hips have to wait until the dog is 12 months old though.

Tried to send private reply to you Jacquie but wouldnt do it.! Just to say the test timings seem to be the same as for my other breeds. I always go to Paul Evans for eyes so guess I will be doing the same with Wynnie. Never done the DNA tests before though.

Thanks again for all the info.

Hi Mary

 I use Laboklin labs for DNA FN and PRA it's very simple and priced reasonable plus quick. results within 8 days.  http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/showGeneticTest.jsp?testID=8094

I normally start with the cheapest test first! The eyes, CPRA, GPRA and Gonioscopy. If they clear those, I do prcd-PRA and then FN, if they are cear, I do Hips.

Although I have had my Clumber hip scored first, then I will be doing the PDP1 and then eyes.

I think it all depends on the breed of dog.

Becasue all mine are health tested, when I keep a pup, I will only need to do the eyes and hips, because the others they will be genetically clear of.

Hi I have today seen Spike's hip xrays and was shocked at how loose they were i am surprised that they stayed in place at all. i have had a long discussion with the vet regarding hip scoring and have now found out that there are several tests with varying reliabilities the most popular in the UK are the one used by the kennel club and another one by an American company called PennHipp. . i just wondered which method the breaders on here use.

There is an issue of HD in working cockers (no matter how people put their heads in the sand). We have a population of about 100 workers here in Finland and  at the moment about 65% have been hip scored. About 33% have a HD of some degree. Mostly C (FCI scales mild dysplasia), but a couple of more serious HD cases (http://www.ladysplits.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/kyttlinjancockereidenterveystietoja.pdf ) . In Sweden they have a database for working cockers and it shows the issue more clearly: http://www.rasdata.nu/jaktcocker/hd0000.htm

As conserning breeding we must breed from the C-dogs, otherwise we loose a third of population and it cannot be done. But they should always be breed with A-dogs (Sorry of using the FCI scale, it's more familiar to me) with suberb hips. Then the chance to get better hips is better than breeding two B-dogs together.

And I can feel your pain: I've had three dogs with dysplasia one crossbreed (hovawart-golden, died at the age of 6 months), a show cocker and a worker. The show cocker has painkillers for her D/D hips and the workers both hips has been operated (one has a caputin extirpation done and the other has a prothesis).

The subject just gets bigger the more I fund out.....I was hoping that speaking to the vet would make it easier to know what to check when getting another puppy...but having been told that Spikke would have been classed as having good hips under the Kennel Club scoring system when he was looking at hip replacements in the next 12 months I am not sure what to trust...does any one know a breader who hip scores using the Pennhip method?

Do you happen to have a picture of the x-ray? I really cannot believe that loose hips could be considered to be fine in any hip scoring scale.

HI Jo.

Poor you and Spike, I'm very sorry for your loss.

We are at present planning our second litter and are finding it quite a task to find a suitable mate for our bitch who has had all the recommended health tests.  Many do the eye tests, prcd-PRA and FN genetic tests but fail to do the hips.  We asked ourselves why and have come to the conclusion that the cost and anaesthetic are peoples main excuses.

I quite agree with Ulla that there is a problem having seen the results coming out of Scandanavia!

Our bitch got a good even score so we do not want to put her to an unknown dog for peace of mind to any prospective puppy owners. I am aware that there is still no guarentee that  the pups will have good hips but, as a breeder I know we have done our best to possibly prevent further suffering like Spike and Lena's Scott

All the best for the future

Jackie