My 15 month has gone off the boil regarding retrieving. Not sure when to pinpoint exact when or why but a few months now, he will do one half hearted retrieve and then no more. I am to blame no doubt as I have spent more time on obedience and fun rather than retrieving as I assumed retrieving to be a natural instinct.

No kids, never have done more than 3 in any session so he's not been over "sent".

I have bought and made every sort of dummy, fur and feather coated to tempt him including cold game.

What he does is run to it, sniff and walk over it, tall wagging merrily and walks off or back to me empty mouthed.

He'll find it easily in cover, same thing. He's not a "dim" dog. I usually train him on his own and have taken along the older dog for exhibiton purposes, makes no odds. My worry is he will continue not to retrieve or just when it suits him. I would prefer him to be all round dog not just for beating. Any ideas? I know he's only a pup but if I dont sort this now the penny may never drop. He is very very food driven (had all the weeny bitter apples within reach off the tree and dug himself half a row of carrots) He is on whistle stop and recall, no problems there, eye contact excellent. He hunts and quarters well but of course not been amongst live game yet .I'm very much hoping for a clue as to how I can help him.

Hunting is a innate behaviour more so than retrieveing I always suggest that people train the retrieving  side of things before allowing the pup to do much hunting.

There are a few books that suggest ways to get a dog to retrieve, but the best way IMHO is to find someone who can show you how to do it, someone who uses reinforcers, someone who doesn't tell you the dog is taking the p**s and needs to be forced into retrieving.

I'm with Mike here, retreivinf with WCS is not always as instinctive as hunting.  I would suggest taking another dog along but it seems you have already tried that.  Professional help may be the only answer.

When I have come across cockers that have gone off retrieving, I usually find the cause is one of two problems.

The first is over retrieving and the dog has got bored of it. You have already explained that this is not the case.

The second is that the natural hunting instinct has taken charge and a dummy is no longer as exciting as hunting. In this case I stop all hunting.

The dog does some obedience, some retrieving in the garden only, where there is not much else happening and other than that all excercise is on a lead. (no more than 3 retrieving sessions a week)

I find that because it is no longer allowed to do exiciting things such as hunting it will start to retrieve in the garden as this is the most excitement it will get.

One of my own dogs went thru this stage, now he will retrieve anything and is desperate to do so. It took three months of no hunting so be patient!

Many thanks for prompt replies, I will stop hunting and only exercise on lead, he can be a nuisance on the lead so a good time to polish manners too. We do go to classes, now on summer break, and interestingly I was told "he's taking the pee" and in the meantime I'll look for more professional help.

The neighbour has free roaming hens, this morning he presented at kitchen door with one, chicken plays dead till released, I smooth ruffled feathers and returned her unharmed, thankfully ( this is the second time, same stupid hen ) tch!

Sometimes they just don't like dummies! One of ours was like that but was one of our best game finding and retrieving dogs! 

Ollie, is the same (12 months old).  Will retreive in the back garden ok, but not the front.  Will do 2 retreives when out and then as the original post just runs to the ball (rabbit skin covred) and the just leaves it.  Doesn't really hunt but nose down.  Stops to whistle an recalls to whistle.  Even stopped all retreives in the garden as I thought better when out.  I know springers are not natural retreivers and soe will not retreive, but thought cockers were better retrievers.  I did ask the question under another post and good information given - Anita may be worth you looking at previous post.  Also had email from Andy Robinson cofirming what others had said.  We''ll get there as cockers don't like being told what to do, you have to suggest it to them and if they  think its a good idea they do it.  Marc

The proper use of high value reinforcers ( not treats) will help to change, for the better, the retrieving behaviour of a dog that has lost interest in retrieving.

I have to disagree with Marc when he says Springers are not natural retrievers, I've never come across this and certainly my old ESS was a star when it came to retrieving.  However I think the idea of zero hunting until retrieivng is fine is a good one.  We never had a retrieiving problem with our Ollie, but he was taught this long before  he was allowed to hunt.  If i was you Anita, I'd take comfort from the chicken episode though, firstly he brought it to you and secondly it was unharmed, these are positives and certainly don't tell him off if he does it.  Instead lots of praise, then walk him past the chucks regularly and when he makes to grab one give a firm "NO", before you know it he will be nice and steady to live game.

Neill,  Not my thoughts about springers but something I read by someone much more experienced with springers than me.  My old springer would climb tress - quite literally to retrieve and would demolish walls, hence him being held together by bolts and wire in latter life.  Marc

Thankyou lovely people for taking your time to reply. He has bought me live mice and sadly baby birds, shows hope I guess.

Have been looking for trainers close to me, some a little " flakey" and one frightened the life out of me. The search continues .I dont want to sound pretentious or contentious but its like trying to find the right school for your child, to my mind, how to sort the wheat from the chaff?

Anita

Roughly wherabouts are you - we may be able to steer you in the direction of a trainer?

The Bramble Monkeys at July 21, 2011 at 2:46 AM

The proper use of high value reinforcers ( not treats) will help to change, for the better, the retrieving behaviour of a dog that has lost interest in retrieving.

I'd be interested to understand what people use as 'high value reinforcers (not treats)'?

I use small pieces of raw chicken skin, half postage stamp size, it's a bit sticky, or I have invested in a food dryer ( from lakeland) that dries small pieces of rabbit, venison, chicken skin or breast or any sort of raw meat. In my experience the use of these sorts of reinforcers allow the retrieving behaviour to be taught in small steps as and if required and more retrieves, one after the other can be given, in each short session. In other words the old advice of not giving more than one or two retrieves a day, no longer applies.

JLA are you having problems, do you use reinforcers in training?

Neill, I'm 15 minutes south of Guildford, Hants/Surrey borders.

Anita

You could try

www.thegundogclub.co.uk

They have trainers in Gosport and Andover.  I've no idea who they are but they may be worth a call.  There is also a Guildford Working Gundog Club, retriever folk I'm afraid but they may be able to steer you towards a decent Spanial trainer (and who knows, they might realise the error of their ways and become WCS devotees

The Bramble Monkeys at July 21, 2011 at 10:22 AM

I use small pieces of raw chicken skin, half postage stamp size, it's a bit sticky, or I have invested in a food dryer ( from lakeland) that dries small pieces of rabbit, venison, chicken skin or breast or any sort of raw meat. In my experience the use of these sorts of reinforcers allow the retrieving behaviour to be taught in small steps as and if required and more retrieves, one after the other can be given, in each short session. In other words the old advice of not giving more than one or two retrieves a day, no longer applies.

JLA are you having problems, do you use reinforcers in training?

BM, excuse my ignorance but whats the difference between a treat and a reinforcer.  I assume you give a small piece of chicken skin on every successful retrieve.  If my assumption is correct whats the difference.  Don't take it the wrong way I'm not knocking it just genuinly intersted that I may be missing something that could help me or am I just being thick.  Thanks Marc

No problem Marc, here is my take on the difference between treats, rewards, and reinforcers.

A treat, or reward is given to the dog, usually for doing something the handler is pleased with, it may or may not reinforce the behaviour, it may not bring an increase of that behaviour happening again.

If it does increase the behaviour re-occuring I consider it goes into the special class of a reinforcer, in otherwords it is a very useful training tool and it's use is elevated far beyond the mere treat/reward status.

Does that make sense?

It depends on the dog and what part or parts of the retrieve behaviour is/are broken as to when the reinforcer is given or even sometimes withheld.  to confuse matters sometimes a diminisher needs to be put in, a diminisher decreases the likelyhood of a behaviour or part of a behaviour.

Again does that make any sense?

The Bramble Monkeys at July 21, 2011 at 2:04 PM

No problem Marc, here is my take on the difference between treats, rewards, and reinforcers.

A treat, or reward is given to the dog, usually for doing something the handler is pleased with, it may or may not reinforce the behaviour, it may not bring an increase of that behaviour happening again.

If it does increase the behaviour re-occuring I consider it goes into the special class of a reinforcer, in otherwords it is a very useful training tool and it's use is elevated far beyond the mere treat/reward status.

Does that make sense?

It depends on the dog and what part or parts of the retrieve behaviour is/are broken as to when the reinforcer is given or even sometimes withheld.  to confuse matters sometimes a diminisher needs to be put in, a diminisher decreases the likelyhood of a behaviour or part of a behaviour.

Again does that make any sense?

Thanks BM.  I think I understand the difference.  A treat is given if the dog does something the handler wants, but the dog may not do it again even though a treat has been given.  If a treat is given for something the handler wants and the dog repeats it for the "treat" then it then becomes a reinforcer as its has reinforced what the handler wants.  Marc

I take it your dog started retrieving tennis balls at the beginning??  I always have mine ball mad,,   more so than boring dummy,, If your dog is food orientated what i have done in past with a reluctant retriever is soak a tennis ball in green tripe juice and burry it on some training ground for a week, ,,Then send dog out thinking its going for a blind, It will soon mark the smell(make sure you are down wind) AND pick the ball, This works very well for a dog that spits out retrieve as it gets to you, As it encourages dog to hold it as it stinks and tastes nice.... Dont overcook retrieves AND dont  do them while hunting, They should be two seperate training sessions and always into the wind...