How can one day be so different from another? Each time I go a step back with Charlie I tell myself not to get so upset about it but I've gone from feeling like I'm beginning to know what I'm doing to complete despair again this morning.  In the last 12 hours Charlie has piddled twice in the kitchen and refused point blank to come to his crate when called.  I think...that I've been trying to run with him before we can walk, so to speak...We've been going on walks again because his recall has been super, (he was by far the best behaved dog on the beach the other evening) he's had one or two toys to play with again and had much less time in his crate.  He is a bold, confident and fairly boisterous boy and I'm guessing he is just pushing it all the time and picks up soooo easily if I'm starting to waiver in my confidence.  I didn't expect training to be such a roller coaster ride.  So, back to more time in the crate, garden only and no toys?

Wendy

I do think you need to slow down a bit as you are expecting a lot from yourself and Charlie.  As I recall, he's about 9 months so should not be piddling in the kitchen (unless he's not well), but this is easily solved by lots of praise when he goes in the garden, admonishment indoors ONLY if you catch him actually in the act.  If you do, then in as loud and deep voice as you can muster I'd bellow something along the lines of "don't do that you wretched little mutt" loud and close up, verbal "abuse" has always been enough for Ollie, he gets visibly upset and is so anxious to please for hours afterwards I've still got a conscience long after he's forgotten what he did wrong!!  It's very rare that this happens these days, in fact I can't remember the last time I really had to tell him off.

Regarding his crate, these are very useful but must never be used as punishment, it must be your dogs home where he can go and not be disturbed.  Ollie has never messed in his, dogs don't like fouling their beds. To this day he won't settle in it at bedtime unless I've shut the door - crazy as we'd sooner him have the freedom, but that is what he likes.

It is a bit of a roller coaster as you say, Sue certainly found the early months with Ollie harder than I did, you do need to exert some firmness so he knows who is boss.  You are making progress, but for the time being concentrate on the basics of getting a well behaved little dog, the gundog or agility type stuff can follow, there is no need to hurry.

Thanks Neill - he's only just 6 months but hasn't piddled for ages - it wasn't that so much as his complete unwillingness to come when called.  After 4 kids another bit of wee is not a problem - it just surprised me as he hadn't done it  for so long. ..No, I never use the crate as a punishment - I appreciate that's his space.  I think I'm a verbal wimp - I must sound like a wet blanket to Charlie...

Wendy

You are clearly very shrewd, I'm sure you are not a verbal wimp, but you may be correct in thinking that Charlie has this impression, it's exactly the problem Sue has, she simply does not have a "growly" voice that can put Ollie in his place.  However loads of ladies succeed so it's not a terminal problem - stick with the basic stuff for a while yet and you will get there I'm sure.  Body language can be used to great effect, a firm stamping of the foot accompanied by an equally firm "no" should do the trick, and lets face it, after 4 children a WCS should be a piece of cake 

Neill - you made me smile for the first time this morning:) I can assure you 4 kids is a doddle compared to this unexpected journey of self discovery/ puppy training.  I'll work on my growl...

It sounds like Charlie is just testing you out.  He has his feet well under the table now so feels he can do so to see where it gets him.  Neill is correct, the tone of voice makes all the difference.  Ours pay far more attention to me - I use my "schoolteachers voice" - than to my OH  who just doesn't have any authority in his voice whatsoever no matter what happens so they run rings round him when they feel like it!:lol:

Wendy,

For the sake of re-enforcement i'd like to say I agree with a great deal of what Neill said in his first reply. You should take this on board.

Other thoughts-

Though Charlie shouldn't be wetting in the house by now, you can't assume he's not clean. You're right, he might be unwell or he might still be trying to work out the boundaries (is 'his' space his crate or your house?). Have you not noticed perhaps that unusually he's drunk a lot and just  simply needed to go? This happened to me Monday after our trip to Bridgnorth. Jack drank bucketfuls, but he was so exhausted he fell asleep and wet under the table whilst he was asleep. I couldn't blame him and didn't. He hasn't repeated it since, nor do I expect him to. As a pup, Jack regualrly wet when he was excited too whether he was in the house or not.

I really think you should concentrate on the positives that you are finding, rather than the negatives. This will alter your mindset toward you and your dog. "The best behaved dog on the beach....." Well done, but how about a post explaining this? Backward steps are inevitable. You now have 'Training Spaniels'. Joe would say that backward steps are not only inevitable but desireable, as the fast learner who never makes a mistake can often in his opinion, lose his abilites as fast as he gained them in the first place. It ain't a race and the course isn't straight.

I'm not sure I'd recall my dog to his bed/crate. Although he will equate it with safety at night, as Neill's dog Ollie clearly does, he might equally equate it with confinement during the day. I'd recall him into the house certainly, but take him to his bed myself. Otherwise you are giving him the opportunity to think "no, I don't fancy that" and disobey you and thus undo your improving recall simply because you allowed him the chance (bad training, not bad dog). I'd recall him to ME, praise him for being a good dog and take him to the crate (and push him in, if need be).  Be honest, how would your kids (or you) fancy a day at the beach then being sent to their rooms or confined to them the next day? If you are saying that he refuses to recall 'full stop', well thats a different issue and has nothing to do with the crate. He just hasn't learned his recall well enough as yet.

The same issue arises in the park daily, where I live. I'm often asked why my dog recalls beautifully and theirs doesn't despite the owners genuine efforts. The reason almost always is because the dog's 'recall' is 'rewarded' with the lead and the tailgate of their car. Fun over. The dog will learn this very quickly and destroy the recall training in an instant. For the record, I recalled Jack often during park walks and replaced and released his lead many times. He does not equate recall or his lead with 'end of fun'. How do you think Charlie now views his crate? Apparently, his 'reward' will be more time spent in it. What thoughts of his will this action re-enforce?

Hope this provokes a bit of thinking from the dog's point of view

Hi wendy i've just read your post and had to sympathise with you. We had two pups together jack and woody and at times I felt utter despair and frustration! One day things would go well then the next day it would be back to square one. The boys are 14 months well trained and go to agility every week. I still can't quite believe it! So stick with what your doing it will get better!!! p.s I to was advised to change the tone of my voice when they are naughty as I was being to soft and it really does work. keep at it and good luck

Charlie refusing to go into into his crete may be because of any single or any number of things, such as, he may want to go to the toilet, he may  have experienced something to make him fearful of going into it. he may want to run out to the postman, he may have heard a bird outside and wants to investigate, a hover may have banged his cage when he was in it or any number of other possibilities, I would check on how fearful he is of approaching the cage, by luring him to it with a high value treat and watching his reaction on aproaching it, That will indicate if Charlie is fearful of going in... I wonder if  you have trained him to go inside on cue?

Wendy  I feel really bad reading your post.

"more time in the crate, no toys"

This should be an enjoyable time for you guys, relax and have fun with your little guy.

Here is what I believe, our modern lifestyles can have an effect on us and we just go on and are unaware of the stress, difficulty being and staying in the moment, difficulty focusing,  reactiveness, feeling overwhelmed. Then when one starts dealing with a dog ones unbalanced self can be seen.

One can learn alot about themselves when learning about their dog.

That was my Opera moment.........sorry.

mike  

Thanks guys - feeling encouraged and battered in equal measures and, as always,  got plenty to think about from your posts.  In case you didn't realise, I'm totally whistling in the wind, peeing in the dark, (whatever the phrase is...) and that's why I'm posting to ask you guys who know a thing or two about dogs and esp wcs.  We got it so badly wrong with Charlie in the first 3 months, and when things go wrong now I want to figure out how best to work things out...please go gently with me...

Apologies if that sounded like a hissy fit - it was.  I'm sorry.  Keith - Charlie was a star on the beach again this morning (I have been posting the negatives more than the positives..you're right)  I thought we had 5 miles of beach to ourselves but then two enormous race horses came galloping along at full tilt.  I recalled Charlie and he bolted to my feet so I could put the lead on whilst the horses raced past. Yay!

I think it's peeing into the wind Wendy 

Wendy - a thought - there's an extraordinarily good DVD called 'Crate Games' by Susan Garrett which talks you through a step by step process of creating superb 'positive drive' for the crate - might be worth getting and watching it?

m

Wendy, don't get disheartened as we have been on a similar roller coaster with our Ollie,  Ollie sleeps up stairs and sometimes on the bed and for no apparent reason when he was about 6 months he weed on the bed - never before or since; he'd been out last thing went up stairs and just weed, I think he was too busy outside and became distracted and then couldn't hold it any longer.  He was told in no uncertain terms this wasn't acceptable and put down stairs for a few hours - hates being shouted at and not being with you.  

I thought we were making progress but then we would go back 3 steps, but we kept at the basics, sit stay come etc verbal and whistle.  Ollie was on a training line for 3 months (10m) but the lead just trailed behind him loose so when I gave command and he didn't react I could just give a little tug so he knew I still could contact him at range.  I never gave a command when the lead was tight, so there was no association.  Well Ollie is 11 months now and loose and I must say that things started to really click about a month ago, so much so that he was about 30m away from me last night eyeing up some blackbirds. I gave the stop whistle and he stopped, still looking and then the birds hopped across the ground about 3 m in front of him and he stayed put, but I was ready to give a shout and whistle if he moved - sigh of relief!. Probably tempting fate by saying this and I have come  to realise that today it could all go pear shaped, but tommorrow it could be good again.  People have said things will click into plac and they certainly do as these dogs get older.  Ollie is till very puppyish and everthing is play time and if he sees kids he thinks it is real playtime.  it will all start to click and if your dog is like our Ollie it will just happen when he is about 9 or 10 months.  Enjoy the roller coaster ride it will come good.  Marc