Hello there!

We have recently become the proud owners of a beautiful working cocker, Charlie, who is nearly 6 months old.  It's been a bumpy start as he's come into a busy family (4 kids) an inexperienced handler (me) and we didn't make it clear from the start who was going to be master. However, in the last 3 weeks and thanks to a fantastic breeder who has given so much time and advice, Charlie and I are on the way to being a good team and he is a transformed puppy (well apart from today, but that's another story!)  Can I tap into your wealth of wisdom and experience (and give my poor breeder a break from the constant calls!!) and ask for some advice about retrieving.  When he was new to us, Charlie would retrieve beautifully and drop whatever it was he was sent to fetch.  Due to too many toys and not enough attention, he's got used to just running off with the dummy/tennis ball and refuses to return and drop.  I'm inclined just to leave this aspect of training until some other things are ironed out.  What do you think?

Wendy

You've diagnosed the problem, too many toys and play retrieves I'm afraid, he now wants to keep the dummy and get you to play chase.  The good thing is the retrieving instinct is there.

You need to go back a few steps.  Try to find a "retrieving lane", i.e a narrow gap several yards long with pretty impenetrable sides, if needs be find a professional trainer who will have one they will let you use for a few bob.  Sit Charlie by your side, throw a dummy (not a toy) just a yard or two.  Get his attention on you but still sitting.  When he's looking at you send him to "fetch", when he has picked the dummy up lots of gentle calling to get him back to you, and take the dummy on the command "dead" and give loads of praise.  Gradually increase the distance over time, weeks if necessary.  Never accept him running away with it, if he does follow him down the lane very firmly (I have my "grumpy walk"), and admonish if necessary.  NEVER admonish him if he eventually brings it to you of his own accord.  Only do a few, say 6 at most, retrieves in a session, you want to leave him wanting more.

Given time this should work and you can leave the lane.  However, and with a family this is the hard part, NO play retrieving at all.  When Ollie was younger I'd got him really steady when I threw the dummy, then all of a sudden he was running in all the time and I could not figure out why.  It transpired that the lady who walks him for me three days a week had been bringing her Dad along because he liked Ollie, and they had been throwing a tennis ball for him for fun.  I had to ask her not to do this, I felt pretty rotten but the simple truth is it was spoiling Ollie as a gundog.

I'd start trying to remedy this now, 6 months is fine for short easy retrieves and that's what you need to get him doing.  By the time he's 9 months to a year you should be able to start on the more tricky bits.

Thanks Neill - that all makes sense.  I'll let you know how we get on...

Hiya,

Have to agree with Neill. Someone else accidently undoing your training is the biggest problem you will face with a 'house-dog'. I've always made it clear that dummies are for gun-dog training and nothing else. They are my toys that I allow the dog to play with (retrieve) when I say so. I also give him visual clues like wearing my country clothes and carrying a whistle. From about the time he started training proper, Jack never had another ball in the house for him to run-off with. His 'toy's' are chew-ropes not balls. I never played tennis-ball games with him from this point. As the light has improved though, the wife has taken him more often to the park. Inevitably she has thrown a tennis ball, but like most 'social' owners doesn't insist on a hand delivered return. Hence Jack's dummy delivery has been poor of late- his stylish sitting delivery is gone for the moment.

He's a smart dog though and slowly he's getting the message and I'm sure he'll soon be back up to scratch. Moreover, I've trained the wife (no, not to retrieve- that's Jack's job, but to insist on a full return).

By the way,  as an alternative if Neill's 'grumpy walk' doesn't work,  and all dogs are different, try the opposite. Lob the puppy-dummy up the lawn and as Charlie picks it up  YOU run away from HIM. Rather than you chase him and he runs off opening the gap, with any luck he'll chase you closing the gap (with object in mouth). Then hey presto, you will  have all the makings of a retrieve!!

PS I found to my cost more is less. Joe Irving would say TWO retrieves is 'one too many'.

ATB 

I agree with Neill and Keith, I also use visual cues like whistle and game bag.  My children have been coached never to allow Coco to just drop on the retrieve, as she is 1 of 5 dogs in the house and yes, they are all pets.  Beware of the alternative to balls, ie. ropes and chew toys, the kids will pick them up, the dog will grab the other end and then you have a tug of war, which could lead to problems with game later, you don't want a dog which will retrieve but then fight you on the delivery, damaged birds are def. not de rigeur on a shoot (if this is what you plan to do). On the whole I have found that, clever little thing that she is, Coco seems to be able to make the distinction between a game with all the other dogs (loud and chaotic) and a proper training session (1 to 1 with me, dummy & whistle etc.)  She makes far more eye contact with me when we're out on our own and I'm directing her with a whistle.  On the flip side, my eldest 7 yr old dog has just learned to return a retrieve, sit and release!!

Thank you for the tips.  Having a real battle again with Charlie over the past couple of days so think retrieving is going to have to take a back seat for a few more days/weeks...At the w/end, I really felt we were making great progress - he was recalling brilliantly, at home and on walks, hupping and steadying (forgive me if the technical terms aren't quite correct!) and so much of the 'bad pup' behaviour appeared to be dissipating (jumping up and nipping my 4 year old etc)  I think I might have been over doing the training and he's got a bit fed up OR he still reckons he's top dog as he's had loads of attention OR I'm just a big stress bucket and getting my knickers in a twist and expecting too much too soon. Maybe a combination of the above...What do you reckon?

Be calm and stick to it,,,,,,,,,,,you can not expect to change 6 months of behavior in a few days. Put some structure and consistancy in your dogs life, just like the kids, they need structure and to know what to expect and what is expected of them.. They all look to you for leadership.

mike

PS. 

Go onto Amazon tomorrow and buy a copy of  Training Spaniels. When it arrives, read it. Then read it again. By the time you have read it for a second time, your life will have changed and Charlie's will have too.

Wendy

What Keith has said makes a lot of sense, even though some may seem a bit draconian.  Ollie gets away with more than Jack appears to, but then he's never even tried to challenge me a pack leader.  However with Sue we had a bit more of a struggle as he clearly thought he was at least her equal for quite a while.  Since she can't bellow in the voice of a Garrison Sargeant Major she was not able to exert quite the control I easily established, and even know he tries it on with Sue when he'd never dare with me!

Charlie is still looking to see where he fits in with his "pack", and it is up to you to make sure he knows where his place is, no need to be nasty but you will need to be firm.  As Keith says, he needs routine, this is a great comfort to dogs.

Put retrieving and all gundog type training on hold until you've established good obdience, got recall solid, sitting etc.  Don't worry if you don't start the gundog stuff until he's a year or more, it won't take him long to grasp that.  God doggy manners have to come first when the dog is a pet - if he was purely a working dog in kennels it may be different but I'd guess not in Charlie's case.

Hi Wendy,Your pup is still very young and obviously has not had much training, which is not your fault. I would not be taking him for 'free (off lead) walks' as such. If you do no matter how much work you do at home with his basic obedience he will find the highway of scent much more interesting. It's a bit like taking a toddler onto the motorway and saying now find your way home: you wouldnt dream of doing it as it is dangerous. In the case of the pup he will be quite happy to educate himself  (dangerous at this age and without training) about scent (remember he is a hunting machine) and you will find it incerdibaly difficult to be more interesting to him than the things he is finding out 'for himself'. You should be the centre of his world. I would stop the walks; allow him to play in a small area of your garden or yard and do your basic training in a very uninteresting place re scent. My pup is not quite five months old and everything I am teaching her is on hard ground - inside the dog room, outside in a courtyard and down a little passage way which leads to our churchyard. No thick cover. Do everything here until the basics are firmly in place and only then move these same little excercises to slightly more interesting ground, where, you will find you start all over again. I think it was Ben Randall in an article in the shooting times who said 'training is not a sprint it's a marathon' - and he is right. Slowly slowly catchee monkey!!!!!!
I know its difficult when you have a household of other adults and children but you must make the rules quite clear to them too. No throwing things being one of the most important. Be consistent. Make up your mind what you want to do with the pup and stick to it. do some training around meal times. Make him sit, then put the food down. Once that is learned make him 'sit' walk away and put the food down, return to him and then send him (You have control over everything - including food). The things you need to do are simple but so important, whether you are going to work the dog in the field or not. getting these basics right will make the little chap feel secure and he will be a very polite and happy member of your family and of society in general.All the best.

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I differ about the free walks aspect.  Ollie was getting daily free walks by 6 months, albeit fairly short ones.  Certainly had he shown a tendency to run off to follow a scent trail I'd have stopped them, but this problem did not arise.

My reasoning is that once the recall is solid, getting him off-lead meant I could really reinforce the positive side of coming back to me when called no matter what he was doing, important for steadiness and retrieving when moving onto these more complicated aspects.

They grow up fast at this age, but mature differently if that does not sound daft.  Each dog varies, but if the individual concerned can be relied upon to come back then the variety offered by off lead work helps keep them stimulated.

HI - lots of good advice here, but if you're looking for books, there's one called 'Ruff Love' by Susan Garrett that deals explicitly with how you might choose to work forwards with a dog that has been allowed free rein.  And it's backed up by a good website and a lot of help.  She's training for agility, but her book is really aimed at the average dog owner.  The key is to know what your dog finds reinforcing, make sure that you have it under control - but keep it joyful.  When a dog has run riot for a while, it's easy to start coming down on it very hard. Finding the joy in everything we do is my daily challenge, but it *is* joyful.  Good luck, you're in the right place for help.  Manda

HI - lots of good advice here, but if you're looking for books, there's one called 'Ruff Love' by Susan Garrett that deals explicitly with how you might choose to work forwards with a dog that has been allowed free rein.  And it's backed up by a good website and a lot of help.  She's training for agility, but her book is really aimed at the average dog owner.  The key is to know what your dog finds reinforcing, make sure that you have it under control - but keep it joyful.  When a dog has run riot for a while, it's easy to start coming down on it very hard. Finding the joy in everything we do is my daily challenge, but it *is* joyful.  Good luck, you're in the right place for help.  Manda

Just a few thoughts....

I think Ben Randall also said that he'd advise prospective trainers looking to go into trailing not to begin serious training until the dog was 12 months old. Food for thought......?

I listed Jack's ground-rules as a guide. At first glance they might appear draconian, but in truth he is a very, very happy little(?) dog because of them. He knows exactly where he stands and it allows him to bring out his character- constantly. It's not unusual for him to catch your eye and deliberately roll over and ask for a belly-rub or to force his head under your hand to ask you to stroke his head, or bring a toy over, throw it up and catch it until you take notice and play.

There are many ways to train many of the aspects being discussed here and its about finding what works for you/your dog. I'm with Neill on the free-walks though for all the reasons he gave- once I'd got the house and garden stuff working first.

Keith

I don't doubt for a millisecond that Jack is anything other than happy and loved, that's so obvious from your main thread 

Wow! Thanks for all your comments -  lots to go away and think about there.  'Training Spaniels' ordered and on its way!  Ground rules have been firmly in place for the past 3 weeks and I can see how far we've come in a short space of time - Charlie sits and waits beautifully for his food, he goes into his crate whenever the family have mealtimes, he isn't allowed upstairs or on furniture and waits for me by the door and lets me go through first. Charlie's biggest problem is me - I lack confidence and sometimes have no clue how to handle a challenging situation when he gets over excited or runs off with something he shouldn't have (I've learnt that chasing after him isn't such a great strategy!!!)  Our garden is full of scent as we live next to potato fields and there are always pheasants chasing around so Charlie's pretty excited as you can imagine...Reassured though, by your comments and the fact that he's really young still and now I've found this forum I can witter away to you guys...and in the meantime, I'm all loved up with my pup 

Wendy

Sounds like you are making good progress, keep up the good work and it will reward you in the end 

Neill at May 20, 2011 at 6:08 AM

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I differ about the free walks aspect.  Ollie was getting daily free walks by 6 months, albeit fairly short ones.  Certainly had he shown a tendency to run off to follow a scent trail I'd have stopped them, but this problem did not arise.

 

My reasoning is that once the recall is solid, getting him off-lead meant I could really reinforce the positive side of coming back to me when called no matter what he was doing, important for steadiness and retrieving when moving onto these more complicated aspects.

 

They grow up fast at this age, but mature differently if that does not sound daft.  Each dog varies, but if the individual concerned can be relied upon to come back then the variety offered by off lead work helps keep them stimulated.

Neil, you are not being arguamentative at all and actually we are saying the same thing. Wendy is talking about basic training and you say 'once the recall is solid'.....  I completely agree. Once all the basics are thoroughly learned then yes, take the little darling for a walk. But even then I wouldnt do it on a regular basis. For my dogs - all of them - a walk with me is a treat; they are free to do whatever they like, I never 'call' them back - in fact I don't take a whistle either, as I believe it's up to them (their responsibility) to watch me and go wherever I go. However, none of them do this until they have covered basic obedience and until I know that they definitely see me as being in charge - even though I am not saying anything. Sometimes all of them go with me - at other times I take one or two and do a bit of training as well

.As you have discovered Wendy, chasing is not a good thing to do. Keep your retrieving in a small narrow area with no distractions. If Charlie does one or at the most two retrieves then call it a day in any one session. Retrieves should be viewed by him as a real treat; remember that a never ending supply of chocolate becomes boring!! I am a novice trainer with cockers but it seems to me after several discussions with people who are very experienced with the breed that the beginning of training is much the same as with any other gundog. I would add the proviso that I turn on 'hunting' with retrievers very early and I will hold off a little more with the cocker and concentrate on everything else and especially getting a rock solid recall and good delivery. Of course all of this is generalising. Much depends on the individual dog and of course what you want to do with it.. A shy diffident character needs more freedom but the hard going dog needs more control. I think all this applies to a family companion dog too.
I know Ben Randall does the same as me. He does one heck of a lot of training in the home/kennel area before getting out in the big wide world.
So, in essence I think we are all saying much the same. I don't see that what I do with my dogs is 'hard on them' - they seem quite happy and in case you are wondering no, I never lay a hand or anything else come to that on them. They are working gundogs but above all they are much loved canine companions. They get tummy rubs and all the rest of the silly things we humans like to do with our dogs but - they do know who is in charge.
I am sure you will be fine Wendy. Just don't do or expect too much too soon.

Much better few days with Charlie - I've taken a chill pill and backed off on training and just concentrated on enjoying him and getting the basics right.  His recall is getting loads better again but sometimes he still just looks at me and chooses to ignore the fact that I've called him.  I don't want to get into the habit of having to repeat the command so I just wait and he always comes...eventually!  Am I doing that right or should I repeat the command with a 'cross boss' voice? I've been keeping him in the courtyard and garden more but I'm missing our walks!  He dropped his rag rope by my feet yesterday morning (miracle!) so I took this to mean he was ready to start a bit of retrieving work  - we just did 2 or 3 in the utility with the dummy.  He did circles and then came back and hupped but didn't want to drop it.  So I just took it out of his mouth saying 'dead'  I gave him loads of fuss each time and let him enjoy the dummy for a few seconds before taking it.  Don't want to mess this up! Am I doing it right?  - I so wish I could turn the clock back 4 months but hey ho - it's a massive learning curve.  Desperate for 'Training Spaniels' to arrive...