Hooked up with an old friend yesterday who has a 1 yr old lab he's training. It will sit for a few seconds, then wander around.

Now with a little cocker I try and stop them before they've moved, and if too late pick them up and plonk them back on the spot. But what's the method for a large dog?

definately not the same as a cocker!! With my Irish Water Spaniel (bit bigger than a lab) I just looped his lead on and marched him back to the spot. He seemed to get the message ! 

Here is an idea off Ian Dunbars site

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http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/stay-proofing

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It involves withholding the sit reinforcer gradually increasing the duration of the sit. Note that the dog is never touched

I'll give it a try, thanks.

I don't think it will be difficult, as the few things we did with it he picked up extremely quickly. For some reason he's trained it to come back and sit next to him, then he takes the dummy from the side. It all looks a bit awkward, but I think he got the idea from obedience training. But as a result, the dog doesn't want to sit and stay anywhere other than it his side.

The guy's concentrated on the easy stuff - sending for a seen - but not done the basics. I asked him how he's going to stop the dog, as the sit/stop/whistle all has to come together, but he hadn't thought about the need to stop it somewhere and redirect. Unlike the UK, there aren't really any clubs here that do regular training sessions for beginners to learn dog training.

Svenk at April 25, 2011 at 8:06 AM

I'll give it a try, thanks.

I don't think it will be difficult, as the few things we did with it he picked up extremely quickly. For some reason he's trained it to come back and sit next to him, then he takes the dummy from the side. It all looks a bit awkward, but I think he got the idea from obedience training. But as a result, the dog doesn't want to sit and stay anywhere other than it his side.

The guy's concentrated on the easy stuff - sending for a seen - but not done the basics. I asked him how he's going to stop the dog, as the sit/stop/whistle all has to come together, but he hadn't thought about the need to stop it somewhere and redirect. Unlike the UK, there aren't really any clubs here that do regular training sessions for beginners to learn dog training.

Yes, this all sounds horribly familiar. I deal with this kind of thing all the time. People who have moved on to all the 'clever stuff' before getting to grips with basics. Then, they come to people like me to 'sort it out'. I have seen a lot of  delivery at the side in Sweden, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. When I ask people why they do it they say it is because the dog has to be ready to 'go' for the next retrieve. All adding to the problem of dogs who will not sit still. Plenty of 'go' but no 'whoa'! 

It is the most difficult thing to train handlers to teach their dogs to do 'nothing'; to get the dogs used to sitting still. I think there is little point in doing something after the dog has moved. The handler has to learn to see the 'intention' to move and either growl at the dog or simply say 'no'  and replace the dog - but the timing has to be perfect. When the dog is sitting quietly I praise the dog. There is no point in doing this with the dog sitting some way away from you. The dog must get used to sitting beside the handler, not moving, and the handler moves slightly away from the dog. This is the way to deal with restlessness; when the dopg is close at hand. Then distance can be gradually extended. I teach all my pups to 'sit' while I walk around them. In fact my 16 week old cocker is doing this now.  Breed of dog makes no difference. Sit means sit until I tell you otherwise - and no matter what else is going on around you. It is for this reason that I dont say 'stay'. To me (and I think possibly to some dogs) 'stay' can mean or appear to mean 'I must do something else other than sit'. I just say 'sit' - and that is what it means.

It can be done with a dog that is older  but obviously you are into behaviour modification which can be harder but sometimes I have found it quite easy  with an older dog who has leanred to forever be on the move as the rule is so clear to the dog. Sit until I tell you otherwise. Totally black and white. Most dogs understand that kind of clarity - no matter what the breed. Do tell this chap to grit his teeth and do it. It will take as long as it takes for the dog to understand and the day he really decides to teach his dog what 'sit' actually means will be the day he succeeds.

 I remember being told to put the dog into a sit stay if I intended to leave the dog and into a sit wait if I intended to do a recall, totally illogical and a nightmare for me to do in practice, but the trainers at the time couldn't see my point of view, I am not very good at explaining things verbally, they did however see the logic in the sit also means stay but it took them six months to change,  when I mentioned that they had changed that part of their training, they told me that was how they always did it. I thought it very funny at the time.

 The logic of a peg dog sitting only at the side seems odd to me because there should be birds dropping all around,  dogs have been made with a swiveling neck and good periferal vision. the birds in front are not usually a concern because they can be picked by the guns, it's the birds that fall a long way behind, the ones that are often pricked they are the ones to send the dog for.

With regard to a side delivery I would look at a front delivery and then bring the dog to the side, by luring initally, it's not what I do, On the shoot I aim for a standing delivery to hand and a sit in front afterwards ready for the next hunt up. sometimes in the excitment of the moment even that simple exercise goes pear shaped.

A couple of months ago we bought a 15 month old 'part trained' lab, we'd planned to get a pup this year to bring on but OH lost his 7 year old lab unexpectedly and needs a dog for next season. Like this lab she was taught to finish a retrieve with a sit at the left hand side to present the dummy. The trainer explained he'd trained her as a picking up dog and that way she was facing the way he wanted her to face. She wont be trialed so it's not a problem for us, she'll be used for picking up and wildfowling. As long as she holds the birds for what we want her for we haven't tried to change the delivery.

Re the sit/stay, I had a problem with my cocker crawling and wriggling initially, Mary's already given you the advice and I agree, start nearer to the dog and build up from there.

I've not seen the 'side delivery' before, apart from those that do obedience type stuff. Ha, I can't be bothered to turn to the side to try and grab a lively bird or rabbit. As far as I'm concerned the dog can bring it round the front where I can take it with both hands. Of course, it may be I then want him to sit at my side, although on the odd occasion I've been at the peg with a dog, he's sat a yard or two in front of me.

Svenk at April 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM

I've not seen the 'side delivery' before, apart from those that do obedience type stuff. Ha, I can't be bothered to turn to the side to try and grab a lively bird or rabbit. As far as I'm concerned the dog can bring it round the front where I can take it with both hands. Of course, it may be I then want him to sit at my side, although on the odd occasion I've been at the peg with a dog, he's sat a yard or two in front of me.

Svenk, I agree with you re the side delivery. I believe it (delivery in the heel position) became a bit of a 'fashionable' thing to do on mainland Europe and was started by a French trainer  a few years ago- but for the life of me I cannot understand why. I do agree with others that in the practical shooting field the delivery position is very much a question of preference but when training a pup/young dog i like to teach a delivery in front and I don't always then send the dog to the heel position as if I do he tends to anticipate and moves after the delivery. I like to keep the youngster sitting in front, while I take my time taking the bird/dummy, putting it away or hanging it on a game carrier and then I walk round the dog into the heel position. I find this then reinforces both positions i.e. the re call when the dog sits in the front and the heel position which is an exact position beside me. Often people mix the two or dont make the difference between the two clear to the dog and then delivery tends to become a bit of a mess. As the dog progressess with training then I may give the heel command after the delivery - but not all the time. I realise I am fussy about a nice delivery. In the shooting field with an experienced dog I dont mind if the dog delivers while standing; often this is the best thing to do but I always insist on a sit when training. It works for me but others may not see the necessity for being so precise.