Hopefully someone will be able to help me over a very small issue I can't seem to get past with Reah.  I am teaching her a (semi) formal obedience retrieve with a dumbell for her end of term assessment.  So far it's all gone well, basically teaching her to deliver the item to hand using a clicker and treats for a reward.

I've now gotten to the point where she will sit steady while I throw the atrticle, send her, she will fly out, pick it up, coming racing back and put it in my hand.  Occassionally she forgets the last bit so I have been witholding the click for longer and longer. 

The one problem I have (and have had with all my dogs!) is getting her to sit for the present and not drop the dumbell.  I think it's pretty common but sit = something different and she will immediately drop it.  I could probably teach her a hold command but I don't really want to overface with too many commands (verbal or hand) so I wondered if there were any other suggestions?

JLA at March 21, 2011 at 12:15 PM

Hopefully someone will be able to help me over a very small issue I can't seem to get past with Reah.  I am teaching her a (semi) formal obedience retrieve with a dumbell for her end of term assessment.  So far it's all gone well, basically teaching her to deliver the item to hand using a clicker and treats for a reward.

 

I've now gotten to the point where she will sit steady while I throw the atrticle, send her, she will fly out, pick it up, coming racing back and put it in my hand.  Occassionally she forgets the last bit so I have been witholding the click for longer and longer. 

 

The one problem I have (and have had with all my dogs!) is getting her to sit for the present and not drop the dumbell.  I think it's pretty common but sit = something different and she will immediately drop it.  I could probably teach her a hold command but I don't really want to overface with too many commands (verbal or hand) so I wondered if there were any other suggestions?

I wonder can you get her to sit at a distance of say five yards out from you ?

JLA at March 21, 2011 at 12:15 PM

Hopefully someone will be able to help me over a very small issue I can't seem to get past with Reah.  I am teaching her a (semi) formal obedience retrieve with a dumbell for her end of term assessment.  So far it's all gone well, basically teaching her to deliver the item to hand using a clicker and treats for a reward.

 

I've now gotten to the point where she will sit steady while I throw the atrticle, send her, she will fly out, pick it up, coming racing back and put it in my hand.  Occassionally she forgets the last bit so I have been witholding the click for longer and longer. 

 

The one problem I have (and have had with all my dogs!) is getting her to sit for the present and not drop the dumbell.  I think it's pretty common but sit = something different and she will immediately drop it.  I could probably teach her a hold command but I don't really want to overface with too many commands (verbal or hand) so I wondered if there were any other suggestions?

Hi

Is it essential that she sits for the delivery?   Some cockers do it naturally, most do not and prefer to present the retrieve standing. Personally, if the sitting present was not essential I would not make an issue about it, after all they are not Labradors and you can cause problems elsewhere by insisting on it. .   If the sitting present is essential in your view then you have really answered your own question, teach her the hold.  I would not worry too much about introducing another  command I am sure she will understand what you want.  If you do teach her to hold on you will probably have to go back a few steps.

One caveat to this reply.  We would not confuse a retrieve with a reward as it does tend to produce problems but that is just our way.

Fiona

I would teach the hold, the extra command can be dropped eventually.

Okay, hanging my head in shame, I didn't give her enough credit!

I spent about 10 minutes working on this last night and after a couple of fab retrieves without a sit I simply asked her to sit as she came in and if she dropped it witheld the click and threw the dumbell out again.  Within about 3 goes she had it.  Not 100% but about 90% so will do a little more a couple of nights this week.

These dogs amaze me - they are so bliming quick to pick things up and work through what you want rather than switching off.

I agree with teaching 'hold'. I always do this with all my dogs (whatever the breed) as it gives me that final good delivery. I teach this at a very young age (Wynnie is doing it now at 12 weeks) Keep it as something 'special' between the two of you; keep a separate article - something she likes (I am using a cats toy - a soft mini duck )- and teach the hold completey separately to everything else. This teaches her what 'hold' means and because you are not using a dummy it detaches the article from any problems which might occur and you wont know if there are problems until you do it! If you see what I mean. wynnie loves our time doing 'hold' and always wants more but I do it twice and then the toy is put away - definitely not to be used as a play article. Hope this helps.

PS Meant to add that I dont insist on a 'sit' to begin with but as the 'hold' is static Wynnie (and most pups I have had) seem to sit anyway. I do insist on a 'sit' delivery once their basic training  is going well but once the dog is experienced in the shooting field I dont insist on the 'sit'. For me it just gives a little extra control when training basics.

Having seen how excited Ollie gets retrieving game I doubt he could sit down such is the extent of the wagging rear end (in fact he wags up to his neck):lol:

I don't feel the need for a sit on retrieve in the normal shooting field, and I am not aware of a Spaniel ever being penalised for it in a trial though I'm not a judge of course.  Delivery to hand yes, but sitting, no.

Yes Neil, I agree. In the field its not necessary as long as the delivery is tenderly to hand however, when training and teaching a young dog/pup I think it helps to get a delivery to hand with a sit.  Belts and braces etc. I only do this after having had, in my early days of working gundogs, one or two with delivery problems. Taught to hold with a sit and I dont appear to have this problem any more.  I have 'wrigglers/waggers too, thank goodness as I love to see a dog so happy to deliver. 

This is for obedience rather than in the field.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

In the field when picking up there isnt enough time for a sit on the return with a bird, as soon as they are back with one they are out for another   Id work on in the house her hold command and im sure she will grasp it very quickly. My cocker Sooty is a natural sitter with a retrieve and will present it with her eyes reaching the sky, its not something ive taught her its just her, like her heel work, she is a natural at that too, which is rare for a cocker LOL xx

JLA at March 23, 2011 at 12:23 PM

This is for obedience rather than in the field.

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I guessed that, so JLA  what course are you doing?

She's just working towards her advanced award at our obedience club that we help run.  She's actually an agility pup rather than obedience but I wanted to get her Gold KC this year and the two went hand in hand.

JLA at March 24, 2011 at 5:30 AM

She's just working towards her advanced award at our obedience club that we help run.  She's actually an agility pup rather than obedience but I wanted to get her Gold KC this year and the two went hand in hand.

Just wondering how do you get on with the off lead and the loose lead walking exercises?

Actually pretty good, Reah's very people focused and actually works with my husband in this, she's got a strong watch command which we use during heel if we think we are loosing her.

Only bit that a 'proper' obedience person would say she needs to be better at would be closer to the leg  as she tends to walk a bit out and then come in for a halt or down so she's not consistent but I am not that bothered :D.

Actually I think she is probably better off lead than on but I think that is pretty common.  Do you do something similar?

JLA at March 25, 2011 at 6:12 AM

Actually pretty good, Reah's very people focused and actually works with my husband in this, she's got a strong watch command which we use during heel if we think we are loosing her.

 

Only bit that a 'proper' obedience person would say she needs to be better at would be closer to the leg  as she tends to walk a bit out and then come in for a halt or down so she's not consistent but I am not that bothered :D.

 

Actually I think she is probably better off lead than on but I think that is pretty common.  Do you do something similar?

I don't do obedience as such, I am just interested in how an obedience person gets a good heel with a spaniel.

The dogs are rarely on a lead, I just cue and reinforce the heel position, it works for a short time, but then the spaniel nose kicks in. There used to be an idea going around a few years ago that if you want a spaniel to heel put it on a lead, but that concept must allow for a pulling, I prefer to teach off lead and make some allowence to nature, so long as the dog does not run in, does not venture more than a couple of yards max and comes to heel when called.

Heeling has always been "fun" with Ollie, and I know I'm not alone with this with WCS.

On a slip lead if he's excited it's pretty hopeless, if he is in normal mode he is acceptable but for good lead heeling the only thing that really works is his halter lead.

Off lead he is better, though needs constant watching.  I was advised that heeling for a spaniel is OK providing he stays with a semi-circle about a yard in radius behind me.  problem is I don't have eyes in the back of my head (a fundamental flaw for a Spaniel man  )!  Therefore I've reversed this to in front of me, and 99% of the time his tail is level with my left leg on my left hand side and no more than about a foot away laterally - this way I can keep an eye on him.

This would not be good enough for formal obedience but for practical working purposes it has worked out fine.

Outside of 'formal' obedience I don't insist on a close heel, but a 'with me' which means be within a couple of feet of me on my left or right but don't keep switching.  When we go to agility I have even be known to let her pull on a lead as she is so excited.

Oddly though, and I guess it's situational (she has a different lead for obedience) she rarely pullls or walks too far ahead / behind when we are our obedience hall.

Leads can certainly make a difference.  I know a chap you uses his Cocker both as a gundog and a tracking dog for deer stalking.  He uses a slip lead for the former and a tracking harness for the latter, and the dog knows what he's supposed to do.

Off lead heel tends to come quicker as the handler takes more notice of the dog and works harder as they are not on lead.  When they are on lead we become a bit complacent as we know they can't go anywhere!!