Hello

Having given my self Peter Jones's book for xmas (as a direct result of the form :)) I find myself wondering if

• a) It's too late to train the small white rocket-propelled agility star in the making (I hope) into a useful working dog
• b) if I tried, would I ruin her for agility?
  

I come to the latter thought because as far as I can tell, agility has to be trained pretty much with 100% +ve reinforcement while clearly most gundog training at least of cockers has a massive amount of its opposite. I have heard of a woman who works with Kay Lawrence who +ve trains gundogs, but haven't found out yet if that's cockers or labs, which would be easier, I imagine (having read the book, I'm understanding a lot more what makes cockers so immensely unique - having the character to sustain the +ve punishment and yet still keep on working says a lot for the near-pathological need to work)

anyway - thought I'd ask... particularly given that I'm in Devon at the start of a week's residential agility training... too excited for words...

thanks, all

m

Manda at January 8, 2011 at 4:54 PM

Hello

Having given my self Peter Jones's book for xmas (as a direct result of the form :)) I find myself wondering if

• a) It's too late to train the small white rocket-propelled agility star in the making (I hope) into a useful working dog
• b) if I tried, would I ruin her for agility?
  

I come to the latter thought because as far as I can tell, agility has to be trained pretty much with 100% +ve reinforcement while clearly most gundog training at least of cockers has a massive amount of its opposite. I have heard of a woman who works with Kay Lawrence who +ve trains gundogs, but haven't found out yet if that's cockers or labs, which would be easier, I imagine (having read the book, I'm understanding a lot more what makes cockers so immensely unique - having the character to sustain the +ve punishment and yet still keep on working says a lot for the near-pathological need to work)

anyway - thought I'd ask... particularly given that I'm in Devon at the start of a week's residential agility training... too excited for words...

thanks, all

m

Hi Manda

             I find myself wondering how you would find the time to do both.

As far as I can see using + reinforcement only methods goes it's totally impossible no matter what discipline you aim for, you must use the other parts of the skinner matrix, but if its a question of how much diminishment to use .............................. well that would be your decision.  Just a gruff voice often does the job, and of course teaching  them to do the required stuff in a non game situation helps rather than putting them in the deep end and then having to put in a hard diminisher.

But then when the dog runs in to game what do you do ........................................... let all the prior training evaporate away?

It is possible to use mainly positive reinforcement (and negative punishment) to train gundogs. Helen Phillips and several other trainers (including the one I use) are very much this way. Helen trains all breeds but I believe she trials godies and vizlas?

I tend to prefer using clicker an dpositive methods for training my dogs and they all ahve to be able to multitask, so I can't see a problem in training your dog to work as well as do agility, but I doubt you'd ahve the time to get him to trialling standard as well as be competitive in agility. I'm quite happy to work towards the gundog club tests and for teh beating field as well as running/training him for flyball and for scent detection work.

I think you may struggle. It takes a lot of time and effort to get a good gundog, as well as correct training, and more importantly the right sort of dog to start with. The training is usually commenced from 8 weeks old, or at least the dogs environment is carefully controlled until such time as training proper commences, so as not to let bad (in terms of detrimental to future gondog work) habits forming. I don't know how agility training works, but with gundogs the whole of it's activities are centered around the handler, and working for him only. It's trying to harness some of the dogs inbuilt characteristics, such as hunting and retrieving, but making sure only certain parts of it are used. ie hunting, but not chasing.

I'm not sure about the whole -ve and +ve stuff, as it makes it sound like -ve is somehow bad. I'm don't know where that comes from. Dogs don't take offence or hold grudges, nor will they love you any less if they are told off or corrected. They can't reason with you, nor can they tell you they don't understand something. The anti -ve thing seems to be big selling point for some trainers, but I guess it sounds better as a selling point  than using terms such as 'encourage what you want, and discourage what you don't want', which is the same thing.

Undoubtably, dogs learn more quickly from positive, fun, training. But in order to steer them back towards this, it is sometimes necessary to point out to them they've done wrong, and that in doing so there will be consequences that they find unpleasant, and will try to avoid in the future. If this has to be repeated too often, then the training needs to be revisted to find out why it's gone wrong, and why the dog doesn't understand what's being asked of it.

By the same token, I would argue that it takes time to and effort to train agility, though I guess the question you have to ask is how good you want them to be at each discipline... a dog trained solely for one will naturally be better, I would say....

There are some people on here who do both, and I wouldn't say they were mutually exclusive, so it depends on how much time you have Manda!

As to positive and negative, I'm with BM, you have to use all aspects of the Skinner matrix to get what you want, though I accept that agility tends to the positive.

Manda I dont think you will ruin her for agility, but if training agility you may have ruined her for gundog work. However its not in the realms of impossibility, really depends on the dog and how well she adapts to the different methods of training. However I know of quite a few gundogs that take part in flyball aswell as fieldwork but then again flyball is basically sending your dog for a retreive. My lad Raven is being used to pick up on 3 shoots this season and he also does very well at flyball but he is in no way an agility dog, however his father bailey whom I also own competes in agility and is doing very well to say the least.  However if it deosn't work out doing both I suppose another dog bought in purely for field work might be an idea   Good luck ..

What is the Skinner Matrix, what is a diminisher? Anyone care to elaborate?

Andrew

Andrew,

How long have you got?  I am sure BM can elaborate, as can TopBarks, but this is as good a place to start as any:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Thanks for that Stuart, I will take a look. Hopefully it's written in plain English, I hate jargon with a passion;)

Andrew

Manda

Coming back to your original question about Agility and working training, You describe your dog as an agility star in the making and I think I'd stick with that.   If you have access to shooting and fancy training a gundog that's great, but I'd get another dog (what better excuse?).

I don't agree though that gundog training has a massive amount of negative reinforcement, as Mike has said it's a mixture and and only negative thing Ollie occsaionally needs is a gruff voice.

Briefly ....................

The Skinner matrix is one of tools which helps me in my understanding of Operant Conditioning. It provides insight and clarification into behaviour modification.

I prefer to use the term diminisher instead of punisher because it better discribes my aim in training. When I first heard it being used a bright light shone on some otherwise dark corners. Thats the powerful thing about terminology ................... the understanding of a single word can turn things around or knock down walls.

As far as my readings tell me the first person to use diminsher over punisher was a chap by the name of Donald Lee Whaley.

Manda there are some people on the circuit who have trained their cockers for both so it does seem possible.  Just trying to think of names I could pm you if you want to try and contact them.

I dont see any reason why you cant do both, one of my good friends has a cocker and he is both a top agility dog and a super gundog. Most of my dogs multitask and my Lab Otter is super at agility, flyball & he also works in the beating line and is a peg dog and accompany's me rough shooting, so yes you can do what ever you set your mind to do with your dog

Carol

You've discovered the secret, you are a lady and can multi-task, hence so can your dogs.

We simple men on the other hand........................:D

I must admit, I don't know about all the terms, so I'll give an example and maybe someone can tell me what it is.

I stand with a dog at my side in front of a closed door. I then open the door and the dog moves to push through first. I step in front of it and say 'no' in a stern voice.

So is this a negative, punisher, diminisher, or some other term?

Svenk at January 10, 2011 at 11:53 AM

I must admit, I don't know about all the terms, so I'll give an example and maybe someone can tell me what it is.

 

I stand with a dog at my side in front of a closed door. I then open the door and the dog moves to push through first. I step in front of it and say 'no' in a stern voice.

 

So is this a negative, punisher, diminisher, or some other term?

This is how I read the situation

It's Impossible to say because you have not told me what the dogs behavour was after you moved and said No.

However if the dog stopped then you have put in a positive diminisher,

positive because you added two stimuli the move infront of dog and the cue "No" and

diminisher because the dogs behaviour of moving was diminished.

Others unfamilar with the term diminisher may see it as a positive punisher, but as I have already said to my mind the term punisher is now superceeded by the term diminisher.

Looks like its gonna have to be a new dog for gundog training then lol......

Manda

"The fact that it's still possible to train a cocker using the techniques advocated in Jones's book is a massive testament to the power of several thousand generations of selective breeding - the innate reinforcement of hunting is so robust that it withstands what would otherwise suppress it"

  If you have the chance to speak with Peter Jones he lays great store on what he calls "Natural Ability" the innate working ability and biddablity of his cockers, I see the aim of training for work not as suppression of the hunting instinct, in fact that path will lead to problems, I have seen dogs over handled dogs the hunting over diminished,  such dogs will not get anywhere in competition, remember competitions are won on the hunting, ( and sometimes lost on the retrieving).

The challenge of gundog work for me is to aim to have a dog that takes the presence of game in it's stride does not become overly excited but also shows a zest and keeness for hunting, not by suppression but by reinforcement through encouragement ( sausages don't work on this level) and if needed well timed diminshment.

I repeat not by suppression.

Paperboy at January 9, 2011 at 8:30 AM

By the same token, I would argue that it takes time to and effort to train agility, though I guess the question you have to ask is how good you want them to be at each discipline... a dog trained solely for one will naturally be better, I would say....

There are some people on here who do both, and I wouldn't say they were mutually exclusive, so it depends on how much time you have Manda!

As to positive and negative, I'm with BM, you have to use all aspects of the Skinner matrix to get what you want, though I accept that agility tends to the positive.

Thanks for the vote, I see you understand The Matrix, It's not the be all and end all of training, but I believe it gives a solid foundation to my understanding.

I wonder are you a Skinner fan?