Showing my ignorance, I will admit that until I joined this forum I was not really aware of testing for health aspects.  I'd heard of PRA and HD but not much else, and certainly not in respect to WCS.

Ollie comes from a good line (I believe), sire was Timsgary Barlow at Hawcroft, and on the dam side the Chudley line.  I've never had any tests performed on him, perhaps I should, ideally at some point I'd like to find a willing lady for him so I can have son of Ollie, buts that's as far as his "stud" career would go (poor wee chap, I'm glad he can't read!). 

Does testing an adult dog who is not used for breeding serve any purpose, are the conditions treatable if found etc etc?  A few pointers will be very welcome.

Hi Neill, if you aren't going to breed, then, apart from your own piece of mind, there would be no reason to test.

No the conditions aren't treatable and they can be passed on, so one would assume, if you are a consciencous breeder and have considered all the other characteristics of your boy like, biddability, confirmation, working ability, nature etc etc, then the last thing for you to consider would be the potential nasty conditions that you can't see lurking in the background, that you would be passing onto his offspring.

I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for that, however much they don't believe in testing.

Thanks Ali, to be honest I'm not sure whether we will ever come across someone looking to use Ollie as a sire in any case, even though as far as I'm concerned he ticks all the boxes (and is rather handsome in my view!!)

I think as many WCS as possible should be tested, even those which won't be used for breeding. If you only test the dogs used for breeding you will get a very small statistic base. For example, your tested bitch might pass in every test, but several of her siblings may be affected. Should that bitch be used in breeding? I will have my Scott's hips and elbows x-rayed and his eyes tested to begin with. He will never be used in breeding due to his deformed forelegs, but I will test him for the sake of the WCS. The more dogs tested the more you get to know about the breed.

Whilst I appreciate the logic, I'd not put Ollie through the trauma of anaesthetic etc purely for the sake of statistics I'm afraid.

As I'm a born worrier and not a breeder I decided not to health test any of mine as I couldn't live with the knowledge something wasn't right!

^Intresting way of thinking. I test because I want to know and when I know I can treat them if needed. And if there is nothing wrong the it's a relief.

There are PRA cases in WCS in Sweden but those aren't prcd-PRA:

http://www.rasdata.nu/cocker/hund/2002/s2833302.htm

http://www.rasdata.nu/cocker/hund/2003/s2783203.htm

http://www.rasdata.nu/cocker/hund/2006/s4919407.htm

Sorry about lacking proper links, but the tool is not working. But the pedigrees are intersting...

Ulla

If a condition can be treated then it's a different matter, but if it cannot, and you don't intend to breed I'm with Carol.

Neill, I have a friend who took on a young spaniel a few years ago, he took the dog on as it had the eye disease that would eventually make him go blind. As he was a kennelled working gun dog he took him on  agreeing that if & when he went blind & his quality of life was not what the dog was used to he would have him PTS. Now everytime I saw that dog which was often I used to treat him with kid gloves & feel so sorry for him, if that was one of my dogs id be beside myself every day with worry etc. Now many  years on that little dog is still not blind and going strong and although he will eventually go blind every day would be an upset for me. There is no cure for this eye disease. However he was not bred from which was a huge bonus.

However as you said, if there was a cure for said diseases that we were testing for then that is a different story, just like the tests we humans have for cancer etc, they save millions of lives. The tests for breeding dogs elliminate off spring suffereing conditions and owner the pain & suffering and in some cases huge expense!

I always remember hearing somone say, how compatible are us humas when it comes to breeding as I know I have conditions that are heriditary passed down to me from my parents.

Neill at July 23, 2010 at 2:29 AM

Ulla

 

If a condition can be treated then it's a different matter, but if it cannot, and you don't intend to breed I'm with Carol.

I feel that all information is good information even if it's bad information. I have had HD cases in my cockers and when I know that there is going to be problems in the future I have better possibilities to monitor them and for exsample star painkillers etc. I personally know that is very difficult to really see when te dog is in pain. When you really know what to expect then it's easier.

And I also would like to see dogs as many as possible tested because it's is valuable for the breed. The more we have information the more we know. Even the ones which aren't going to be used for breeding.

Ulla

As I said in my reply to Lena above, whilst I appreciate the sentiment of getting as many dogs tested as possible, I'm not prepared to put Ollie through the stress and risk simply for the sake of a few statistics.  He is terrified of the vets, even though they are very good, kind and caring.  If all WCS were being tested fine, but being honest how many would really be done, and who would actually pay any heed to the data?

Each to their own though, like i say, I've nothing against it and for breeding think there is a very strong case indeed.

I've just had a look at the links Ulla has given and it's very worrying when you see which dogs are PRA carriers, especially as their ancestry contains all the usual suspects.  The third link is particularly interesting.  Unless I am reading the information incorrectly, the sire of the bitch listed is a very popular sire who is still being used.  Why when it is known he is a carrier of PRA?

I had a look at the links but could not understand them.

The PRA cases in Sweden is a different kind of PRA. We are not sure about the genetics in this form. One dog affected has sired quite a few pups. They will all be scanned and tested, all costs payed by the cockerclub. They will, of course, not be bred from. Till we know more about this, there is IMO no reason to act on relatives with proven high quality.

When it comes to testing or not: I think it can be overdone. If we end up paying attention to nothing but the treats that can be tested, we might loose a lot of important genes... And some might think it's OK to breed from dogs with for instance crooked legs, undershot jaws, skinconditions or anxiety..... as long as they are FN and PRA clear.

On the other hand..... if we shall test..... the testing of offspring is almost as important as breedingstock.

I do annual eyescan, optigen-PRA and hipscore. I expect the my customers to do a couple of eyescans and hipscore (they are very few... I breed a litter every 3-4 years).

A question to all of you: Would you breed from a known PRA carrier?

Annikken

To answer your question, no i would not.  But I'm not a breeder so it's a bit academic in my case.

Thanks for your input Annikken!  Yes, the type of PRA involved here is GPRA, not prcd-PRA.  However, as it's mode of inheritance (or not) is as yet unknown,  I personally would not have mated two carriers as in Ulla's third example.  That is taking a huge risk as far as I can see.  To answer your question, Annikken, I would be wary of breeding a GPRA carrier whilst the situation regarding passing this condition on is still not clear unless there was a very good reason to  do so.  However, if it was prcd-PRA the dog carried, providing it was known that the bitch was clear and there were other good reasons why you might want to breed the dog, I would consider it.  Not that I have bred as yet so my opinion may change in time as more is known about these conditions.;)

Hi Annikken, good to hear from you. I think you make a very good point about other health issues, or undesireable traits, as well as those conditions that do have health tests available.

I like to have the whole picture, and for me the health tests are part of that, and equally as important as, temperament, conformation, good bite,  working ability,  and all the other components that make up a good working dog.

In answer to your question I would probably not breed from a PRA carrier unless it was a prcd-PRA carrier, and even then it would have to go to a clear dog, and  all the dogs other qualities would have to be of excellant merit for me to consider it.  If I did end up going down that road, then I would also test any offspring of that subsequent mating to know their status too.

Rachel

Where can I find out about prcd-PRA as opposed to GPRA etc etc please?  It's all rather like a foreign language to me!

Is there a "Dummies Guide to inherited Dog ailments" 'cos I really need one?

Hi Neill, click on the Pro Health button on the side of this site and you will get taken to all the health issues and the tests etc., In the navigation bar on the Pro Health Site click on Cocker Health and then sub heading Health Tests Available, all the conditions are described on there.

Thank you Rachel, I will give this a good read and certainly bear it in mind as and when I get a new puppy.