I think due to a lack of experience and letting Alfie run free a bit too much  I am no longer the most exciting thing in the world to him. Chasing birds is much more fun and I find I have to use a gruff voice or shout at him to stop him running off into the bushes which I don't like and that doesn't always work. He then becomes deaf to the whistle on recall and to my voice. I currently either have to shout at him when he comes in my vicinity or cut him off at the pass - either that or wait for him to get tired / bored after 10 minutes or so. We have a 15m training line which I haven't used yet, but not sure if this is the best route to go down, what I really want is to get the focus back on me and any suggestions on how to do this greatly appreciated. I think being gruff and shouting is straining the bond between us and I'm sure is making me slightly stressed with him which he can no doubt sense.

Thanks,

Ed

Hi Ed,

sorry, don't have time for a full reply - just in from work and have more to do now, and off to a trial tomorrow.

If you're having trouble keeping his focus, train somewhere with less distractions. Find a grassy area like Farley Mount, where he can't nip into the bushes, and get him focussed on you. Get him quartering in front of you nice and close, and throw a couple of retrieves during the session also.

If you can't keep his focus on grass, try a few retrieves in a car park!

By all means let him exercise, but when you are training, you should be his centre. All his fun should be coming from you. Treat him like a pup and be really 'up' and encouraging. Don't forget to praise him as he comes back, but a stern ah ah if he goes too far. The difference should be night and day to him. If you don't give enough praise it just becomes like nagging and they soon don't even recognise it as being scolded!

Let me know how you get on. We can meet up in a couple of weeks as discussed an I'll take a look at him for you.

Cheers,

Nick 

Many thanks Nick. Tried that this morning and was much better. A pesky pidgeon led him astray, but soon back under control. Picked up the retrieves, but dropped on return - will talk to you about that in a couple of weeks. Really looking forward to meeting you in a couple of weeks and getting some pointers.

Will keep you updated with how we are getting on. Off to Dorset with the dogs for a long weekend so will have plenty of time to do some playing and training with Alfie.

Cheers,

Ed

Hi Ed,

I'm really keen to know if Nick's advice worked in the long term. I have a similar situation with Jack and I am always very wary of the fine line of punishing when he returns for running off and ignoring the whistle as ultimately he may decide that it is more interesting to stay out than to come back to receive a growl and scolding....

Martin

Martin ........................ I am going to suggest if your dog comes back to you not to tell him off on the contrary give him a small piece of cooked sausage and praise him up.

Ed, you are doing the right thing in meeting up with Nick.

Martin you should also think about a few sessions with a trainer.

A few pounds spent now with a trainer for anyone experiencing difficulties can save you from the next 10 yrs of having a half trained dog that chases everything in sight!

I have met so many people who regret not seeking advice sooner. The longer these cockers are allowed to get away with chasing etc, the harder it is to correct.

I think this is due to sheer exuberance, Ollie is still inclined to chase after something he's flushed, I think he imagines I'm going to shoot it and he will be on the spot to retrieve it for me.  With Ollie I can stop him though, either a firm "no" if he's close enough or on the whistle, he then comes back.  The stop is not automatic yet on live game, though it is on a dummy.  For a trialling dog this would be an absolute no and we'd be out of the competition, but it's not too great a sin for an ordinary working dog PROVIDING the stop command is obeyed.  I'm hoping it will become automatic when he gets more used to game around him.

My advice would be similar to Nick's, avoid distractions until the stop is really ingrained in him.  Then venture on to land with some game or pigeons/rabbits and start again (this is what it will feel like).  You should find that Alfie is more controllable though.  I'd not bother with a long lead, I had one years ago for an ESS, total waste of time for the work we are trying to do.  They have an important role in training tracking dogs but that's for another thread and breed even.

I'm not advocating the use of a training line but can only say what worked for me.  Our Ollie took off just before Christmas (7 months old) and accept it was my fault as I let him get too far in front.  Not sure he went after anything, just free running and enjoying himself.  As Ollie isn't the best at directions he got himself lost even though I could see him at all times - he ran to the places we usually go and when he did see me he came back at speed and h ehad lost of praise for coming back.  I then decided to put him on a 10m training lead (the Clicks one) as it is like a horse training line and causes less burn.  I never allowed the lead to get tight.  When Ollie got to about 8m I would sday stay and whistle. If for some reason he didn't respond I always had the option (have to have your wits about you) to put my foot on the lead, which gave a little tug.  Even though he was remote he began to realise I still had controll.  I did this for 3 months, until I was confident I had control.  Also when walking to the woods I would give a stop command every 50m so it got engrained.  Part of our walk goes around a golf course and we usually have blackbirds or thrushes looking for worms and grubs.  Ollie thinks "BLACKBIRDS" this is chase time, but I deliberatly walk him to the birds telling him leave and am ready to punce if he makes a move - as Edward Martin says no point in avaoiding things, better to confront them whilst you ahve control.  Fortunatley I have instilled into him on and off the lead from day one to leave.  Ollie is now running free, but if he ventures more than 10m he is stopped on the whistle and is told to stay until I catch up or is recalled - bit of a pain, but hopefully he is always under control.  Best of luck, you will get there.  I used to have black/brown hair now I'm the colour of a badger!!.  Marc

If you find Susan Garrett's blog, (clickerdogs.com) she has a series of training plans - the 5 minute recall - which are designed to rectify exactly this. Or buy her book 'Ruff Love' and follow the 'games' in there.  The point is that no dog can be expected to understand that you're the centre of its world if everything else is pressing its innate buttons anyway - Pavlov (innate training) will always trump Skinner (quadrant based training)

So they key is to control the environment, make sure you have reinforcements that are truly reinforcing and then to make sure your dog is finding joy in working with you

good luck

m

It's interesting ..............you say that inate stuff trumps the operantly conditioned behaviour, it generally does on first appearance but by moving on through and re-shaping with O.C. training and using Behaviour Anyalsis it is usually possible to control instinctive drift,  remember the inate stuff is a result of the ancesters behaviour being selected by operant conditioning.

It's just that over time it has become embedded in the animal.  I reinterate The training of the moment can override instictive drift, I just need and struggle sometimes to find the correct methods, just as others have in the past.